CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2007 3:35:53 AM
diamondmike- sure thing my friend! Be well!
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2007 3:07:57 AM
CarSUV - Re your last post to me - Thank you for the smile. :)
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2007 12:26:38 AM
ShanC - to understand the meaning of words in the KJV, a good reference check is the 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language by Noah Webster. The online version has been unresponsive for a while, so I finally pulled out my physical copy.
That dictionary tells me that you are correct and I am wrong; bondsman does indeed mean slave. I apologize for my error.
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2007 4:46:46 PM
>Again, the word "slave" is not in the KJV
That's very nice.
However, you can BUY "bondsmen" and beat them to death because they are your property.
You can call the big yellow round thing we see in the sky an "asteroid" if you want to - by its definition of what it is, it is still a star.
From the KJV...
"of them shall ye BUY bondmen and bondmaids." (Leviticus 25:44)
"If thou BUY an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve" (Exodus 21:2)
"And if a man SELL his daughter to be a maidservant" (Exodus 21:7)
And of COURSE, your quote of "if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished." does not continue to the next verse (how convenient) which says "Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall NOT be punished: for he is his money" (Exodus 21:20-21 - KING JAMES VERSION)
So make sure to beat your "servents" that you OWN, so that they only die after a day or two. Do our current murder laws cover this also?
Talk about "out-of-context misquote".
When you can buy people, and sell people, and beat them to death, and they are your money - they are slaves.
Or, under your definition, Ted Bundy was not a murderer. He was "a person that made it so other people suddenly stopped living".
>I pray you make the right choice
I hope you do also.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2007 12:59:47 PM
ShanC, if you read the Bible, you'd see that proper treatment of all employees (today's terminology) is dictated in the Bible. Again, the word "slave" is not in the KJV, only in bibles using corrupted manuscripts. If you don't like their usage, take that up with Catholicism, their manuscripts are where the part you object to is coming from.
The KJV is more clear about treating servants, first "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death (Exodus 21:12)" which is the same as current US law, premeditated murder is the death penalty. Second "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. (Exodus 21:20)". How is that different from current US law? The word "slave" is not in the pentateuch, which includes Exodus and Leviticus.
Just because you can find mistranslations of corrupted manuscripts that say something bad does NOT mean they are accurate. Any more than they are accurate in their other myriad doctrinal and other problems.
Your out-of-context misquote of Luke, in context: "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. (Luke 12:45-46)".
This speaks of punishing one who commits a crime; why does that bother you so much?
ShanC, bottom line is that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins. If you accept His gift, you can be with Him forever. If you reject Him and His gift, then that is your tragic choice. I pray you make the right choice, so you and I can rejoice together in Heaven for eternity.
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2007 9:08:29 AM
>sing a real Bible, not one of the doctored translations
Meaning ONLY the one YOU read. All others are wrong. (I find that a frequent theme here.)
>the word "slave" or "slaves" is found only twice in the Bible.
Leviticus 25 where it states that "you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you". Even in versions where "slave" is replaced by "bondsmen", it says that you "buy" them. Buy humans. There is no other way around this, unless "buy" really means "to employ them fairly, giving them generous benefits".
Exodus 21 is where it speaks of beating slaves until they die... unless of course these "slaves" are just regular employees. Then it seems OK to beat employees to death. It also tells you how to properly sell your daughter into slavery, and how to keep a slave's wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave.
Ephesians 6 tells "Slaves" to "obey your earthly masters". Even in versions where "slave" has been replaced by "bondsmen" and such, it still states "obey your MASTER".
Luke 12 speak further on punishment for slaves.
>Your analogy does not hold up.
If a person's rights of property being taken away are directly due to a person's personal freedom being taken away, then the weighted freedoms to not even begin to come close in weight. "Property"... "Human Freedom". Quite a bit of difference there.
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CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2007 5:32:44 PM
diamondmike posted:"I could care less what this organization thinks of the bible and their alleged superior power. They also want to protect their hate speech against gays. A nice role model."
So in essence you are saying that you could care less as opposed to could not care less, right? Just kidding. ;-)
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2007 4:19:09 PM
geekguy - If those that supported slavery back in the Dark Ages thought they were losing something, ie property, then they were wrong and not very good people christian or otherwise.
Today, these people believe in censorship and discrimination. No matter what the bible says or does not say, that is ALWAYS wrong. Understand that they are enforcing their personal RELIGIOUS beliefs on everyone else via legislation. I do not support any religious organization and NEVER will.
By agreeing or supporting them, you better be careful what you wish for. If they can successfully impose their religious beliefs via legislation, they may then attempt to outlaw all christian denomination that do not believe exactly as they do.
I could care less what this organization thinks of the bible and their alleged superior power. They also want to protect their hate speech against gays. A nice role model.
Either you agree with me or you are the enemy, so sayeth the CCV.
Well, I am the enemy and always will be. I believe in freedom of choice. They do not. For that crime, I will be condemned to Hell for all eternity. Wrong. Hell is on this earth with narrow minded people like this telling others how they must live. I say, to Hell with them.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2007 1:59:05 AM
diamondmike - but you're missing a key point here. First let me be clear - certainly my opinion is that the right thing was done by eliminating slavery.
However to the people who supported the reprehensible practice of slavery, they believed that they "owned" something, and that was taken away by eliminating slavery. They lost what they viewed as property; and the right to own property is one upheld in our legal system. Again I and any Biblical Christian would deny the concept of property related to persons.
But from the point of view of the "owners" of slaves, they were being deprived of something valuable, by having the morality of others imposed on them.
Seems like you (and many others) are upset about having something you disagree with forced upon others, but you're fine with something you agree with being forced upon everyone. Why are you right and the people you disagree with wrong?
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2007 1:25:31 AM
geekguy - It is real simple. Ending slavery gave people rights. This current group is about taking away rights. If you agree with taking away rights or denying them, then we will forever be on opposite sides.
As for whether or not christians fought because the bible told them to end slavery, is irrelevant to me. The bible is just a fictional work to me.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 5, 2007 12:33:24 AM
CarSUVowner, I'd love to go into the Bible versions issue with you, but this thread wouldn't be the place. I'm not saying you drew any conclusion about slavery, my point is just about the manuscripts.
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CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2007 11:20:56 PM
geekguy posted:"In short, the fact that it mentions slavery 34 times is an indication of the corruption of the underlying manuscripts, not of slavery being acceptable to God."
I NEVER said that slavery was acceptable to God, did I? BTW I study from the NRSV only. That is the version of the Bible that is used by the church I am a member of. Might as well be on the same page as my church.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2007 10:58:15 PM
CarSUVOwner, the NKJV is heavily influenced by the Catholic manuscripts that underpin almost every current translation. I suggest you look to the KJV for the unadulterated Word of God. It's the only un-copyrighted translation I know of, the only one not produced for profit.
In short, the fact that it mentions slavery 34 times is an indication of the corruption of the underlying manuscripts, not of slavery being acceptable to God.
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CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2007 9:05:25 PM
NKJV mentions the word "slave" 34 different times
[Edited by: CarSUVowner at 8/4/2007 9:07:26 PM EST]
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2007 8:59:15 PM
ShanC - the word "slave" or "slaves" is found only twice in the Bible. Once in Revelation 18:13, talking about how the corrupt world system will engage in it. And in Jeremiah 2:14 where the word is used in a rhetorical question. You claim "since in the Bible slavery is acceptable". Next time you make such an inflammatory claim, I strongly suggest you take the time to check its veracity first (and if it's about the Bible, using a real Bible, not one of the doctored translations).
Then you go on about how eliminating slavery granted freedom to people. Of course it did that. However to the people engaged in the repulsive practice, they claimed "property" rights that were violated by taking away their "property" when freeing the slaves. To them, opposing slavery was taking something away from them. Your analogy does not hold up.
Where did any genuine Christian group say "only our religion in their public school"? Unless you can provide evidence of that, you're engaging in a weak straw man argument.
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2007 5:11:19 PM
>what about the Christians who, making themselves very unpopular, fought
>against slavery because the Word of God says all men are of one blood?
Many of the Christians back then used The Bible to back up slavery; since in The Bible slavery is acceptable. As long as you treated them half-way decent, and only beat them so badly that it takes them 3 days to die instead of instantly... it's OK.
If I may speak for someone whose idea I do know of, through numerous conversations... "to impose their beliefs on others" is the pertinent context means "To impose their beliefs on others as to take away their rights or freedoms."
This is what diamondmike is concerned about.
When the people making our laws said "Our belief is that murder should be illegal." - that did not take away rights, it gave them. When people said "Slavery should be abolished." - that gave people freedom.
When they say "You two consenting adults cannot marry." or "Your child must learn only our religion in their public school." - then there should be great concern.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2007 12:41:27 AM
diamondmike -
You say you don't want a group that has beliefs different from yours to impose their beliefs on others.
So what about the Christians who, making themselves very unpopular, fought against slavery because the Word of God says all men are of one blood? They were attempting to impose their beliefs on others who thought that a certain heritage or tone of skin meant an "inferior breed". Repulsive thought, but those fighting it were Bible-believing Christians attempting to impose their Biblical beliefs and values on others.
In the early 1800's, would you have sided with the Christians?
Or the Jews who marched with Martin Luther King in the 60's because they knew what racial hatred is about? They were also trying to impose their beliefs on others.
Why is it okay for something you believe in personally (ending slavery) to be imposed on others, but not okay for a different topic? Please explain why this is not evidence of you being inconsistent.
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2007 3:18:45 PM
To clarify a small part of the discussion (for my own benefit if no one else's):
diamondmike: "ShanC - Thank you for your words. Much appreciated."
diamondmike: "ShanC - You are right. I am evil or what ever you said. WEG lol"
What is missing in between, is a post from me to DM saying "I STILL think you are a" and then I put a bunch of dollar signs, pound signs, percent signs, and exclamation points. This was to insinuate some type of unknown obscene name-calling.
At the end was the smiley-face emoticon, to show that my "insult" was indeed NOT to be taken seriously. (And of course DM did not, and would not take offense to.)
That post was removed, making for a confusing thread sub-conversation.
..
Oh... And THAT is what I think of a Hindu Chaplain saying prayer in the Senate!
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2007 3:15:05 PM
geekguy - <<I can't tell for sure, is your problem with this CCV group that they are trying to impose their beliefs on others?>>
Yes they are. Their religious beliefs. As for the fluoride in drinking water example, there would be scientific evidence either way. That is not a personal or religious belief.
FYI - CCV.org would give you their beliefs.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2007 2:17:47 AM
diamondmike - I am indeed a Fundie. My definition of Fundie is one who believes the Bible from cover to cover, one who reads the Bible with the philosophy:
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.
So based on that simple set of interpretational rules, Genesis 1-11 for example is something I see as literal truth, while non-Fundies tend to allegorize (i.e., disbelieve) this.
Note that politics is NOT a part of the definition of a Fundamentalist, at least my definition. Like any person I have political beliefs but those are personal.
I gather your complaints are about this "CCV" organization, not one I'd heard of before. As far as I'm concerned, they are a political organization, not a Biblical one. There are many parallels to them, groups of people who have a common interest (pro-union labor, anti-fluoride, etc.). I can't tell for sure, is your problem with this CCV group that they are trying to impose their beliefs on others?
Why is that different from a group of trying to fluoride in or out of drinking water? All those groups are attempting to make decisions impacting your body...
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2007 1:08:29 AM
Qad - You are right. I do not believe you. Never will. You may have your diety. He will never be mine because he is not there. I do not respect the judgement of your diety nor will I accept it.
ShanC - You are right. I am evil or what ever you said. WEG lol
Later.
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Qadosh
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 11:01:25 PM
shanc, I agree with you, except for the part about "innocent humans"!
;-)
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 10:37:34 PM
>Gimme a break ShanC!
I would not do that. I cannot harm an innocent human.
>I demanded nothing,
Then "asked with sternness and expectation".
>I asked for a little respect for me and other Christians on this site.
Only Christians? No one else?
>then why would he bother to come to these forums anyway?
To debate religion in the "Religious Debate" category.
To express his views and opinions, and possibly educate others.
>I would have to question someone's motives when they constantly bash God
>and show disrepect for all the Christians that frequent these threads.
Do you like-wise question someone's motives when they constantly bash those who bash God, and show them disrespect? Or the motives of those who bash atheists, and show them disrespect? [I have seen some do this. You do not reply in these cases.]
And again... I have seen someone here type "G_d" instead of "God" due to their own specific belief. Do YOU do that every time you post, out of respect for them and their religion? Or do you only type words according to YOURS; and all ask others to follow YOURS?
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Qadosh
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 9:56:45 PM
dm, I am not offended by you ever. I completely respect your decision to reject your Creator. You can rant all you want about the Lord, because I *know* that He exists, I know Him personally. You would have a better chance convincing me that my wife does not exist. I am also very glad that you would never surrender to *my* God, because He is not *my* God, He is the Creator of the Universe, He knows every star by name, and He is the One that gives you breath. He is the Author of ALL Scripture and the epitome of love.
You can not offend God [this definition:to cause to feel vexation or resentment usually by violation of what is proper or fitting], if you could, then He would be, as you like to rant, a fairytale. The True Infinite, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Creator would never be offended by His Creation. I highly recommend reading Psalm 2 to see how God views those that oppose Him. Psalm 2 No, God is not offended, He is Judge and Jury, those who reject His gift of salvation will be judged according to their works.
I know you don't believe me, but I really do like you, sometimes you go just a little too far off the deep end and I don't even bother answering you, but I am glad you are not one of those that pretend they are Christians, yet reject His Word. Jesus said, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16)BTW, you can rest assured that I am not running around trying to change the laws of this country. I am a fundamentalist, like my brother in Christ, Geekguy, that means I believe the Word of God and I am looking for His kingdom, because this world is soon going to burn; talk about global warming!!!!
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 9:53:56 PM
"sgm4law your posts to me are laughable at best. I take all that you say with a grain of salt because you are a complete and total stranger to me and most likely it will stay that way....hahahahahhahaahahahahahahhaha!!!!"
I'm not sure what I have said to provoke such a strange reaction. Have I posted something else to you, as well? I was just coming to the defense of diamondmike (although I would not go so far as he does in demeaning the deity of which others speak).
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 6:34:33 PM
geekguy - I have not interacted with you much and it has been a very long time. I could have sworn that you said you were a fundamentalist. Do I judge people based on perception? I thought we all did. We are all human. No one on this earth is perfect. How many times do we each judge someone before we even talk to them?
The fundies I am speaking of, give their religion a bad name in my opinion. Do you believe the same as them? I do not know. For reference they are CCV if you want to check their beliefs.
I know I will always be in the minority opinion in this country. One needs to always remember, be careful what you wish for.
I think I will take the advise of GM, and give it a rest.
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 6:24:55 PM
CarSUV - As for the capitalization issue, I used the word once in my previous post and capitalized it. To me I capitalize proper names and since I do not believe in him, that is why I do not do it.
Yes we disagree on a great many things, but that is what this country is about. I have always respected your opinion. I will always respect the right of an individual to choose his or her own personal beliefs. Again that is what this country is supposed to be all about.
Also, I was responding to Qads post and trying to make it clear to him, that his religion could never be mine. It was addressed to him. If I were replying to your post or someone else who I have found to be more amicable, like yourself. I was not addressing you or others, only Qad.
I am not mad at any superior being since I do not believe in one. Some fundamentalists are the ones I vehemently disagree with. I know you live in Memphis and definitely do not consider you a fundie. I know better from your posts. Are there fundies in every state that rival the ones I disagree with? I would think so. Look at the AFA and the uproar that started this topic.
I did not mean disrespect to you. Also, since you have asked, I have avoided the word, using it only once. I think it is best I go on hiatus. I believe you have my email if you wish to chat. If not, that is ok too. Do I say good things? Of course. Check the pope topic in this forum.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 11:27:19 AM
diamondmike - just as you accuse others of doing, so you are doing.
You accuse fundies of all being of the "dominionist" camp, those who wish to legislate in a Christian world. See Wikipedia's article for a description.
The thing is most fundies I know of, and all I associate with, are most certainly not in the dominionist camp. Yet, diamondmike, you treat all of us as if we were, not bothering to listen to find out if that is actually true.
Dominionists limit the Lord Jesus Christ in that they believe He will only return when they have "claimed" the world for Him. That's a pretty puny God.
The fundies I know and associate with are those who believe what the Bible says - His return is imminent, and has no precondition attached to it, now that Israel has returned to the land.
However your attitude has been to take anyone defending the Bible and put them in what you are considering to be one big group.
That blind, lump everything together, judge without listening approach is inappropriate from me, from you, from anyone.
Are you willing to at least listen to what people say before stuffing them into the pigeonhole you choose?
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 11:24:22 AM
It is the attitude of someone who is comfortably in the majority that they can ask nicely that others obey the dictates of their religion. No one in this country asks Christians (see, that does get capitalized) to follow the strictures of another religion. Just because you ask nicely does not make the request "nice".
As someone pointed out, although Jews believe that one should not spell out the word of their god, I don't see them running around expecting you to do the same.
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CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 10:57:18 AM
diamondmike, both of your posts to me do not address what I asked of you. Ask is the operative word here. I did not demand anything of you but asked you nicely out of respect to stop using the word god and use God instead. If you do not want to do it out of respect for the other Christians, at least do it for me. I have always respected your opinion even though at times it has differed greatly from mine. But when you say such ugly things such as:"......I will NOT EVER stand before your alleged god. Nor will I EVER bow before him as he is pure, unadulterated evil......." a n d "Your god has no right to judge anyone for he is not a god, but an evil, vindictive dictator who enjoys punishes those who see through his smoke and mirrors routine."...... then you have most certainly crossed the line.
Just because you are angry and pissed off at God because of something that happened in your past that made you lose faith, you DO NOT have the right to take it out on others. Especially complete strangers such as myself who have done absolutely NOTHING wrong to you.
I briefly read over your last two posts to me and they had something to do with the fundies in Ohio. I live in Memphis TN so what in God's name does that have to do with me and the reason you disrespect me and other non-fundie Christians that post here that ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY? HMMM?
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CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 10:48:05 AM
sgm4law, not sure I understand your statement:"How presumptuous, and obnoxious!"
What exactly IS being presumptious and obnoxious about asking someone to spell the name God in the proper way out of respect for myself and other Christians? Your statement makes absolutely no sense. I demanded nothing. I ASKED, not TOLD diamondmike to PLEASE do something out of respect. You are the one that is obnoxious for even writing that statement....lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 9:31:54 AM
"First off, I have asked you nicely several times out of respect for myself and other Christians to capitalize the word God instead of writing it out as "god"."
How presumptuous, and obnoxious!
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 2:36:24 AM
ShanC - Thank you for your words. Much appreciated.
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 2:35:33 AM
CarSUV - More simply the fundies in this state want me and everyone else to follow the laws of their 'God'. That is wrong IMO. Only the followers of whatever religious belief should have to follow the laws set forth by their religion. Obviously the fundies and Qad do not agree with my opinion.
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2007 2:22:33 AM
CarSUV - I come to these forums to express my opinions. The religious fundies in this state of Ohio, are trying to completely erase the line that separates church and state. They are imposing their view of their religious beliefs on the rest of the state. I have also come to the conclusion that the only religious beliefs that will be welcome in Ohio, will be dictated by these same fundamentalists. To me, Qad is just exactly like one of these fundamentalists. His opinions seem to be the same as theirs. To me, they are the enemy of freedom in this country. They appear to believe in censorship and do not care about others religious beliefs. These are the people who would outright discriminate against gays as an example. They are the reason why not only is gay marriage illegal, but civil unions and anything approximating marriage. All based solely on their religious beliefs. If these fundies were not passing laws based solely on their religious beliefs, I would not care one iota about them. However, they are trying to tell everyone else what they can and cannot do based on their beliefs.
I tell Qad I am fighting against beliefs espoused by himself and others and he thinks I am fighting against his superior being. Whatever. He tells me I will have to answer to his higher power simply because he believes it to be true. Believing something to be true, does not make it so.
Since differing opinions are a point of contention, maybe I will just wait for the authorities to arrest me for not believing as the rest of society does. In this state, I would not doubt it. However, that would spell the end of freedom in this country as we know it. It is apparent that is what the fundies in this state are after.
BTW - I have said many times, that I respect everyones right to choose their own personal religious beliefs, even if I do not agree with them. That part of what this country was founded upon. Freedom to choose your beliefs.
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CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2007 11:31:05 PM
Gimme a break ShanC! I demanded nothing, I asked for a little respect for me and other Christians on this site. diamondmike knows where I am coming from and he has been crossing the line a tad too much lately. If he is so friggin' miserable about religion and God then why would he bother to come to these forums anyway? I would have to question someone's motives when they constantly bash God and show disrepect for all the Christians that frequent these threads. Sheesh.
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2007 10:31:25 PM
>First off, I have asked you nicely several times out of respect for myself and
>other Christians to capitalize the word God instead of writing it out as "god".
But what of anything about it being out of respect for diamondmike's beliefs?
If doing so (capitalizing "god" to "God") would be counter to his own belief, he should do it regardless out of "respect" for others' beliefs?
I have seen someone here type "G_d" instead of "G_d" due to their own specific belief. Do YOU do that out of respect for them?
>Please respect me and my wishes.
Not having everyone respect you and your wishes is not a guaranteed right in this country... luckily, for you, as you do not respect diamondmike's wishes to post what his beliefs are.
His views are different from both yours and mine. But I would not expect him to follow your beliefs and wishes, just as I would not expect you to follow mine.
This *demand* of yours for him to adhere to your ways is just what diamondmike often posts about.
[Edited by: ShanC at 7/30/2007 10:36:43 PM EST]
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CarSUVowner
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2007 8:24:04 PM
diamondmike posted:"Qad - Get this straight. I am not fighting against god because he does not exist. It would be like fighting a kids imaginary friend. Makes no sense."
Then you go on to say:"I will NOT EVER stand before your alleged god. Nor will I EVER bow before him as he is pure, unadulterated evil. I have no need for repentance. I have committed no crime other than seeing through the smoke screen that has been placed before many....."
First off, I have asked you nicely several times out of respect for myself and other Christians to capitalize the word God instead of writing it out as "god".
Secondly, if you do in fact believe that God does not exist, why do you continously rant and rave on and on things such as:"I will NOT EVER stand before your alleged god. Nor will I EVER bow before him as he is pure, unadulterated evil. I have no need for repentance. I have committed no crime other than seeing through the smoke screen that has been placed before many....." ??????
If you believe that God does not exist, then why carry on in that childish way saying what you are not going to do for, to, and about something that DOES NOT EXIST TO YOU? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
I would appreciate if in the future you can not show me respect by capitalizing the name God that you do not bother to use it at all. I would also appreciate it if you would NOT continue to bash God because I happen to believe in Him and you are disrepecting me with your hatefilled rantings and ravings.
Like my mother always used to say, If you cannot say something nice about someone or something, do not say anything at all. Please respect me and my wishes. If you continue in the manner in which you seem to enjoy so much, I will have no choice but to report you to the moderators. I will do that as a last resort however. Thank you.
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2007 11:32:30 AM
Qad - Get this straight. I am not fighting against god because he does not exist. It would be like fighting a kids imaginary friend. Makes no sense. I am fighting against those who would have their own personal gods alleged rules made the rules for the country. It appears you fall into that category.
Also, I have asked you many times not to call my Mike. Only my friends may call me that.
I will NOT EVER stand before your alleged god. Nor will I EVER bow before him as he is pure, unadulterated evil. I have no need for repentance. I have committed no crime other than seeing through the smoke screen that has been placed before many. I have removed the blinders and clearly see that this is nothing behind door number 3. No god, no christ, no holy spirit. The con game being run has no more effect on me.
Your god has no right to judge anyone for he is not a god, but an evil, vindictive dictator who enjoys punishes those who see through his smoke and mirrors routine. Oh wait since he does not exist, it is the smoke and mirrors routine created by the followers of this so called religion. Especially the fundies. So love is an eternal punishment? Keep drinking that kool aid.
[Edited by: diamondmike at 7/30/2007 11:38:26 AM EST]
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2007 7:28:42 PM
>I am sure you agree with God's laws when they benefit you
I had to check the name to the left again when reading that part, to make sure who was posting to whom.
It got confusing.
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Qadosh
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2007 5:32:03 PM
dm, You can fight against God all day long, however you *will* still die, you *will* stand before Him, He *will* judge you based on your works, unless you repent and receive the Lord Jesus as your Lord and Saviour; as the Word of God clearly says, not as I say.
I am sure you agree with God's laws when they benefit you, what you fail to realize is that they all benefit you. He will love you forever Mike, even if you reject Him and choose eternity in hell. Just as it is your choice to reject His free gift and reject His laws, so it will be your choice to force His wrath on you, because you reject His One and only Son.
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2007 5:22:41 PM
Qad - you said - <<Beside that, this Nation is NOT a christian nation, NEVER has been. It is an absolute shame that other Nations view America as "christian". We "legally" murder over 3,000 children in this country EVERYDAY! We, as a nation, promote fornication, drugs, murder, pride, self indulgence, materialism, alcohol, etc... I feel that no true follower of the lord jesus should pray in front of the Senate or House, preach YES, pray NO; unless our legislatures are willing to repent and follow the lord vader, I feel it is casting pearls before swine.>>
So this country should ONLY follow christian beliefs as you view them? WRONG!!! We have this thing you may have heard of, called freedom of religion. BTW there is only one true follower of jesus by your definition - YOU. You are the reason I fight for freedom of religion. And in this case, freedom from your religion.
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Qadosh
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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2007 12:06:07 PM
Nisky, I agree completely with what PGM wrote. It is the Jewish faith that you should examine closely. Please take a good look at the Messianic prophecies contained in the Word of God.
I thought I *have* answered your question twice. Please ask it again and I will answer it specifically.
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NISKYMOM
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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2007 9:59:57 AM
to Diamond Mike: Thank you.
To PGM. I apologize for misunderstanding, but I am VERY comfortable with my religion and my perception of my religion. I will not justify that to you or anyone else.
To Qadosh..you quote new Testament to me. I am a Jew. Can't you understand that we do not believe in the New Testament. In any case, all of this is SO office topic. Again you ignored my question, but that's ok...in any case, I believe thre is nothing more to say. You're going to be conviced that you are right and I am wrong and I will NEVER agree. So all I have left to say to all of you is: Shabbat Shalom!
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PGM
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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2007 8:20:12 AM
NISKYMOM,
"With all due respect. Thanks but no thanks. I can't understand that while I am willing to respects the beliefs of others, even though they are completely contrary to my beliefs, why many Christians won't give that same respect to others."
--> Perhaps you misunderstood because I was asking you to look at your own faith, not mine. Maybe I should have been more clear about that. And so that you don't get the wrong idea about what I wrote, I wasn't evangelizing but asking you to look into the word God as you know them -- not as I know them.
And I'm sorry if you felt I was being presumptious about you and your family, that was unintentional as I simply expressed my wife's view of things and what happened to her. I really don't presume to know you. The presumptions made were based on your words in the Judaism forum that I read.
"Judaism is not an evangelical religion."
--> Perhaps that's how you view it but that's not how God views it.
Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
How can the Jews bless the nations if they do not evangelize?
My suggesting you to look up the Jewish messiah was only a suggestion. It really has nothing to do with the topic so I won't continue on with it
-- Peace to you and yours.
[Edited by: PGM at 7/27/2007 8:22:52 AM EST]
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Qadosh
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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2007 1:19:41 AM
Niskymom, you asked, "I can't understand that while I am willing to respects the beliefs of others, even though they are completely contrary to my beliefs, why many Christians won't give that same respect to others."
--> Because it is not about what I "believe" or what you "believe" it is ALL about the Word of God and what He has said. Jesus declared that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man can come to the Father apart from Him. I know Him Nisky, I know whom I have believed, there is no doubt. I was born again in June of 1989 by the Grace of the LORD alone. My spirit was made alive that day and I know Him. All who perish apart from His Son will spend eternity in hell, that is what the LORD has declared. With that knowledge I *have* to tell others. I do not want anyone to suffer for all eternity and neither does God, but if you reject His Son, that is His punishment. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)
Jesus is the only person to walk this earth and keep the commandments of God. I agree with and keep the first three commandments to the best of my ability. I only worship One God, the LORD YHWH (Jehovah). Three Persons, ONE Almighty, Everlasting, Eternal, Living God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the ONLY God I serve. These attributes of our Creator are NOT completely hidden in the Torah and Prophets, they are there; so please kindly answer the questions I asked you of Pesach, Genesis, Prophecies, and the genealogies.
You say that the Jews are not evangelical, like that is a good thing. Do you think God would have the rest of the world perish? God commanded the Nation of Israel to be evangelical, because they have disobeyed, in no way makes them correct. "Declare his glory among the heathen; his marvelous works among all nations. For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens." (1 Chronicles 16:24-26)
No true follower of the Lord Jesus would EVER resort to murder, as you again imply. That is completely unBiblical and satanic. Islam is a satanic religion that is why they murder and "convert" by the sword. Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship, and anyone that Knows the Lord Jesus would NEVER murder someone in His Name, that is beyond ludicrous (Biblically speaking).
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diamondmike
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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2007 7:47:52 PM
Niskymom - You are a breath of fresh air. I enjoy your posts. I will not pretend to understand the Jewish faith since I have never been Jewish. We do have one thing in common. We both believe in the individuals right to choose their beliefs and how to practice them. That is my interpretation of your posts. I hope I am correct.
Peace to you.
Live long and prosper.
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ShanC
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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2007 12:08:30 PM
>you once gave me a large list of alleged "Biblical" errors,
>I went through them verse by verse to show you that you either
>misunderstood or deliberately ignored the intended meaning.
And the rest of your comment that you forgot should read: "by means of MY specific interpretation of those verses".
You're welcome.
>the Word of God declares the stars to be innumerable, like the sand,
The number of stars (and the number of grains of sand on Earth) can be calculated. It is not innumerable.
And of course do not forget that all these innumerable stars are only 6,000 light years away.
...
And that is what I think about a Hindu prayer in the Senate!
(Thought I'd get back on topic.)
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NISKYMOM
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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2007 10:41:40 AM
PGM: With all due respect. Thanks but no thanks. I can't understand that while I am willing to respects the beliefs of others, even though they are completely contrary to my beliefs, why many Christians won't give that same respect to others. Judaism is not an evangelical religion. In fact, it is quite difficult to convert, especially if one's conversion is Orthodox. I don't know your wife and don't know what led her to make the choices that she made. Clearly, that is her decision to make. You presume to know me. You don't. You presume to know how my household is run. Again, you don't. After having my life almost taken on 3 separate occasions by Palestinian terrorists, simply because I was a Jew, I am even more committed to my faith. For me, Jesus has no place in my faith.
Qadosh, the point I was trying to make is this:
In the Sh'ma, there is only a reference to G-d as the one and only G-d. Therefore, by Jewish beliefs, belieiving in the Son, the Father, and the Holy Ghost, is beleiving in more than one entity. We believe in only one G-d. No son, no Holy Ghosts, just G-d.
I asked you a direct question about the First Commandment. I actually should have asked you what you thought of the first 3 commandments, but either way I'm sure you would have twisted it around to prove that you are right and I am wrong.
Here they are:
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
As you have said, the word of G-d is very narrow. Do you see anywhere a provision that says someday, we could worship someone else? Not from where I stand.
I'm not telling you to change your beliefs. Unlike you, I respect your right to believe in what you believe. I'm asking you to respect those who don't believe as you do and not to assume that your religion is the one true religion. That kind of arrogance is not unlike Muslim Extremists who consider all non-muslims (and that includes you and me and the rest of us non-muslims in this thread) infidels and worthless. Tolerance Qadosh, that will help you be truly Kadosh!
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PGM
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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2007 6:30:17 AM
NISKYMOM,
My wife was Jewish as well with much the same opinion as you have about who Jesus was. She grew up in a very matriarichal type household where the women were very strong personalities, very strong in temple tradition and services, not wealthy but they all took care of one another (3 generations under one roof).
I think I can say that I understand your religion and have at least had a taste of your heritage through my wife's eyes and some of things sHe's brought into our family.
Have you ever examined just the prophesies about the coming messiah? Not the hearsay and tradition, but the biblical text.
I was given a book that contained these references that excluded the Christian section of the bible and gave it to my wife to look at . it's easy for a Jew to think that Christians might try to mislead unknowing Jews but without any pressure of this kind of evangelism the prophets have given us a tremendous amount of information about who He is supposed to be, what He's to do, and even when He was to arrive.
My wife was sceptical too and that's fine if you are. But if you do take the time to try this you might just think about it as finding out for yourself what God promised through the messiah -- it's not a Christian thing, it's a Jewish one.
If you want to do this yourself I'm sure you can do a google search for this topic and pull up a zillion web pages these days. Just ignore the new testament, you won't need it to show you the promises of the messiah.
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