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w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Jul 30, 2011 11:29:01 AM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse I've often heard that when confronted with the history of the Bible being written, edited, revised, etc., by men, the reply is "Yes, but their work was divinely inspired by God." How do you know? How does one discern the difference between a bible written, edited, revised, etc., by men, and one by men who were divinely inspired? How can you tell?

w@ntonsoup

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2011 11:29:01 AM

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I've often heard that when confronted with the history of the Bible being written, edited, revised, etc., by men, the reply is "Yes, but their work was divinely inspired by God."

How do you know? How does one discern the difference between a bible written, edited, revised, etc., by men, and one by men who were divinely inspired? How can you tell?

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tankerCA Champion Author Chico Posts:2,566 Points:353,040 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2011 8:06:52 PM Ignore tankerCA Report Abuse ldheinz - >>In the case of biblical prophecies, the believers in the bible can easily create circumstances to make the prophecies appear to come true, thus invalidating them.<< You're comparison of biblical prophecy to a double blind study is invalid. The very reason for prophecy is to prepare people for what will happen to validate what God said or to serve as a warning. The idea you're floating about believers in the Bible 'easily' creating circumstances to make the prophecies appear(?) to come true shows your lack of knowledge when it comes to what the Bible predicts. "Isaiah 66:7-9 Isaiah prophecied that Israel would become a nation again and that it would happen in one day! Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8 "Have you ever heard of a woman who gave birth to a child before having labor pains? Who ever heard of such a thing or imagined it could happen? Can a nation be born in a day or come to life in a second? Jerusalem is like a mother who gave birth to her children as soon as she was in labor. The LORD is the one who makes birth possible. And he will see that Zion has many more children. The LORD has spoken." Prophet: Isaiah Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC Fulfilled: 1948 In Isaiah 66:7-9, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel, which happened "in one day." The woman giving birth before going into labor represent Israel. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2,900 years." "During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day." A nation that wasn't, born in a day. May 14, 1948 and they were attacked on the next day by overwhelming forces that were defeated by this fledgling nation. (see 1948 Arab–Israeli War). [Edited by: tankerCA at 8/27/2011 8:07:53 PM EST]
tankerCA Champion Author Chico Posts:2,566 Points:353,040 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Aug 27, 2011 7:27:35 PM Ignore tankerCA Report Abuse ldheinz - "teagust, did you see Star Trek 5? The crew of the Enterprise is placed in precisely that position. They figure out that the being is a fraud." Old theme, new take.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,012 Points:2,355,945 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 23, 2011 7:36:27 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse teagust, did you see Star Trek 5? The crew of the Enterprise is placed in precisely that position. They figure out that the being is a fraud.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,012 Points:2,355,945 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 22, 2011 8:10:03 PM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse teagust, your reply is in the other topic.
teagust Veteran Author Tucson Posts:448 Points:9,205 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Aug 18, 2011 5:42:30 PM Ignore teagust Report Abuse i just thought the post was not on the right topic so i reposted it to the other. the question is when you are on the SPOT.
bigtrevor Champion Author Grand Rapids Posts:4,383 Points:908,295 Joined:Nov 2007	Message Posted: Aug 18, 2011 4:26:36 PM Ignore bigtrevor Report Abuse Teagust, I don't think there was a need to spam two topics with that question. Besides, who would want to believe in a dude that sent his only son to die for a bunch of mutant apes with slightly larger brain pans? :)
teagust Veteran Author Tucson Posts:448 Points:9,205 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Aug 18, 2011 2:58:17 PM Ignore teagust Report Abuse I have a question for ldheinz. What if you are already on the spot that God has shown Himself to you? Lets say He is all in white, smiling and floating in the air and is extending his arm to you for your acceptance? I know you would say that that is impossible and that would not happen. If you are on the spot, would you believe? or would you still have questions and doubts why the thing is floating and again, base everything in science.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,012 Points:2,355,945 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 18, 2011 1:28:12 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse As for biblical prophecy, there is a principle in science known as a double blind study. For a study to be valid, both the tester and the testee must not know what is being tested for. The only way that biblical prophecy can be considered valid is if the people involved do NOT know what the prophecy is. This would prevent them from performing actions to MAKE the prophecy come true. In the case of biblical prophecies, the believers in the bible can easily create circumstances to make the prophecies appear to come true, thus invalidating them.
ldheinz Champion Author Chicago Posts:19,012 Points:2,355,945 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Aug 18, 2011 1:18:25 AM Ignore ldheinz Report Abuse mexicomaria - "It is very hard to convince someone that is not from the same POV that we know the power of God because we know what it feels like to have the indwelling Holy Spirit residing inside us. " But that "feeling" of certainty does not indicate that you are actually correct. In fact, Neurologist Robert Burton wrote a book on the subject of "certainty" that shows that your "feeling" exists entirely without any actual correctness of your belief. That feeling of certainty is just an illusion. [Edited by: ldheinz at 8/18/2011 1:20:47 AM EST]
Pastafarian Champion Author Philadelphia Posts:2,111 Points:413,955 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Aug 16, 2011 6:06:22 PM Ignore Pastafarian Report Abuse But w@ntonsoup, these are religious beliefs. It's offensive to question religious beliefs.
w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Aug 16, 2011 2:52:20 PM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse So people tell you the same thing repeatedly, and instead of scrutinizing your sources, you dismiss them out of hand. Well that certainly explains why you believe this nonsense. Science and skepticism allows me to accept criticism and explore that my beliefs might be wrong.
tankerCA Champion Author Chico Posts:2,566 Points:353,040 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Aug 16, 2011 11:50:30 AM Ignore tankerCA Report Abuse w@ntonsoup - >>Well, first of all I read a bunch of those and ambiguous doesn't begin to cover how these prophecies were "fulfilled". Very vague.<< That's a frequent comment that I hear, but it doesn't ring true at all. It's more like a 'cut and paste' comment from some humanist website. Such comments reveal an ignorance of the Biblical prophecies that were recognized early on by many Jews as Messianic. Bible prophecies are so accurate - historical evidence!
nayla2011 All-Star Author Toronto Posts:587 Points:13,365 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Aug 13, 2011 6:16:56 PM Ignore nayla2011 Report Abuse King James- devinely inspired, well a lot of people say religion is the perfect way to control masses. I think that was King James' inspiration.
mexicomaria Champion Author Minnesota Posts:24,096 Points:1,352,565 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Aug 12, 2011 8:55:54 PM Ignore mexicomaria Report Abuse OPPPSSS. I am not one of those folks who opened their heart to anything... Christ came to me when I was minding my own business. Now, I am saying not all Christians came to God the same way. If you want to talk about what happened I will tell you in private. .. but I can tell you I was seeking nothing.
w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Aug 12, 2011 8:09:25 AM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse Why don't you seek and open your heart to the god Isis? Or the god Zeus? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Until you do, you have no idea what you'll find, or what you'll feel, right? Because UNTIL YOU SEEK AND OPEN YOUR HEART TO IT, you can't truly feel it and believe it. Give it a try. Let me know the results.
mexicomaria Champion Author Minnesota Posts:24,096 Points:1,352,565 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 9:39:50 PM Ignore mexicomaria Report Abuse because wanton.....I or tanker do not give you understanding. We do not convince you....we give the info as called to do...the convincing is not ours. The convincing is between you and God. If you truly want to know God....search for him...open your mind, your heart and you will find the understanding you can not find from any of us. That is all I can offer. I can want you to understand and pray for you to understand but unless your heart is open you will not see God. Agape to you wanton.
w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 8:44:20 PM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse Well, first of all I read a bunch of those and ambiguous doesn't begin to cover how these prophecies were "fulfilled". Very vague. Second, if you're looking at this as a skeptic, or simply someone who isn't yet convinced, don't you see that if you were going to create a story of a savior based on the OT, you'd integrate the necessary prophecies into your Jesus story. (Although, apparently not very well or every Jew would accept that Jesus was the 2nd coming and would now be Christians, right?) I'm unconvinced, but open minded. Instead of a website showing 300 lame attempts, why don't you give me a few REALLY GOOD examples of NT prophecies coming true, during historically written history? Not "it's in the bible" history - but REAL history?
tankerCA Champion Author Chico Posts:2,566 Points:353,040 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Aug 11, 2011 1:14:20 PM Ignore tankerCA Report Abuse w@ntonsoup - >>"I sure would - please let me know some of the predictions written in the bible that then came true 400 years later. I'm open minded, convince me."<< There are dozens of Old Testament prophecies that are specifically and clearly fulfilled in in the Messianic prophecies of Christ: Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled In Jesus' Life Fulfilled OT prophecies concerning Israel: 10 Prophecies Fulfilled in 1948 Are you convinced now, soup?
bigtrevor Champion Author Grand Rapids Posts:4,383 Points:908,295 Joined:Nov 2007	Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 8:39:49 PM Ignore bigtrevor Report Abuse "If someone predicts something and writes it down and all read it...and the people live by those writings...and wait for those writings to come true....then 400 years go by from the last written prediction/prophesy, and all of a sudden all those predictions start happening as predicted....wouldn't you go....hummmmmmmmm?" Sure would, if that were at all true. By the by, do you also believe that Nostradamus' predictions have come true?
w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 8:07:04 PM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse I sure would - please let me know some of the predictions written in the bible that then came true 400 years later. I'm open minded, convince me.
mexicomaria Champion Author Minnesota Posts:24,096 Points:1,352,565 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 11:52:39 AM Ignore mexicomaria Report Abuse If someone predicts something and writes it down and all read it...and the people live by those writings...and wait for those writings to come true....then 400 years go by from the last written prediction/prophesy, and all of a sudden all those predictions start happening as predicted....wouldn't you go....hummmmmmmmm?
w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 11:36:36 AM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse But it seems like you actually did provide an answer to my question - you can "feel" the difference between something authentically authored, authorized, and inspired by god, and something that may have started out that way but was edited, revised and bastardized by humans 1,500 years ago. You can "feel" the difference, so you are confident the bible is divinely inspired.
w@ntonsoup All-Star Author Denver Posts:941 Points:33,165 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 11:19:02 AM Ignore w@ntonsoup Report Abuse Surely you understand that using the bible to prove the authenticity of the bible is absurd, right? I could write a book of fiction tomorrow that says "This book is 100% true" on the first page. It doesn't magically make the book true.
mexicomaria Champion Author Minnesota Posts:24,096 Points:1,352,565 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Aug 8, 2011 4:54:54 AM Ignore mexicomaria Report Abuse "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16 It is very hard to convince someone that is not from the same POV that we know the power of God because we know what it feels like to have the indwelling Holy Spirit residing inside us. There is no way I can make you know what I know...none....only the Holy Spirit can do that and to get the Holy Spirit you have to open the door...not me open it for you. Understanding will not come ever without the Holy Spirit. I can tell you that there were prophesies fulfilled to the letter hundreds of years after the Old testament was complete, but if you have the mind of a skeptic, I really believe nothing a Christian says will make any difference.